Sunday, September 26, 2021

Mace Windu is an overrated fighter and combatant.

The following post of this blog will detail the moments and incidents where the character of Windu has had many relatively poor showings for a character that many star wars enthusiasts have claimed to be "sidious level" "superior to dooku, anakin etc". My post will include quotes from the novelizations of 2 important StarWars Books ("Revenge of the Sith" "Attack Of The Clones").
Other sources i use will be the dark horse Comics (often called Omnibus), micro-series comic, novels like "Shatterpoint" "Labyrinth of Evil" etc & Wookiepedia the starwars wiki that is available online to everyone that has internet access.

As a warrior in combat against other opponents.
1) Fought Saesee Tiin:
[1]
[2nd picture]
Basically - "Saesee" is strong enough to alone be a match for Mace Windu.

2) Equalled in combat by Qui-Gon Jinn.
Quote (from wookiepedia):
"Jinn became one of the Order's finest duelists, and he could easily defeat many enemies and he frequently sparred with many of his skilled contemporaries: his mentor, Dooku;[10] Mace Windu, the creator of Vaapad;[4] and Jedi Weapon Master Anoon Bondara.[179]"
To put it simply Mace Windu could not best Qui Gon in a single fight, though its true that Qui Gon could not defeat Windu it won't change the opposite from being true either. They were not better than eachother. Neither was Windu superior to Qui Gon neither was the opposite true, they are equals as fighters.
For Qui Gon vs Dooku as per starwars he did lose to Dooku. Its even referenced they fenced eachother a thousand times.

3) Lost to Jedi Dooku:
In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective.
Source: Power of the Jedi Sourcebook

4) Was seperated from Obi-Wan at the battle of Genosis being outmatched by what can be referred to as a "Reek" (beast in the arena of Genosis):
Proof
Source is the Attack of the Clones novel. Mace Windu got dunked on twice by the same animal. He's been constantly gettin punkd since 2002.

5) Could not beat the Ultra Battle Droid without aid from a fellow Jedi Master:
"Jedi Masters Mace Windu and Saesee Tiin faced the Avatar-7 prototype at the Battle of Iktotch.[1] Though their individual skills were not enough to overcome the behemoth, the Jedi worked together to defeat it, eventually destroying it by crushing it under the remains of a Hailfire droid."

6) Needing all skills including shatterpoint, vaapad, and any lightsaber move taught to him to defeat Asajj Ventress (who was nowhere near her prime as a fighter, the incident took place only three months after genosis, she fought till boz pity which was close to this wars ending):
Imagine; if it was a Asajj Ventress that was from Dark Disciple, or from the dreadnaughts of Rendili or if Asajj was on Dathomir amped up by darkside energy on the nexus their?
Also Asajj in this particular battle already burnt some of her energy out on dealing with other Jedi so Mace used all his powers (vaapad & shatterpoint) against a Asajj that was not only before her prime but after she wasted her energy.

7) Lost to the warrior "Kar Vastor"
Source Material - the novelization of "Shatterpoint" page 261.

8) Despite having help from Aayla Secura & ObiWan Kenobi he's unable to gain any notable advantage over the zabrak Sith "Darth Maul"Count Dooku", another Jedi also supported windu, even though he had vaapad, shatterpoint and 3 Jedi assisting him windu could not prevent his team from being on the recieving end & a member died even though Windu crossed blades with both opponents.
Photo
Source is "
Son Of Dathmoir" comic book:

9) Is beaten and repulsed by two Magnagaurds in the battle of Boz Pity:
My commentary - imagine these gaurds vs palpatine and yoda.

10) Knocked out cold by a rocket launcher from a random mandalorian warrior.
Image:
Reference - "Son Of Dathomir" (SOD)

11) Vianna D'Pow gave Mace Windu a hard time:
"D'Pow tried to leave the nursery, but instead ran into Windu, who was busy reading a datapad. Before the Jedi could react, D'Pow stunned him with a taser. Windu, trying to recover, called upon the Force and pushed D'Pow backwards."
Explanation - mace windu recovering and getting the upperhand later is not important, i am in no way trying to say he lost. My point is all about how Windu lacks reaction time against a low tier warrior, Vianna is certainly not high on the heirarchy and she was able to do this to him.
The point is that she stunned him such a thing wouldn't happen if the opponent was Sidious, Dooku or someone like Yoda.

12) Mace was pushed to his limits, wounded & out of breath, nearly defeated cause of droids at Genosis.
Screenshot;
From "Attack Of The Clones" a movie novel. The highest form of canon in Star Wars History.

13) Fight with Sora Bulq.
Analysis - When Sora had the help of master Tholme the odds were in his favor as its two on one, yet still the guy who dominated this battle with no difficulty at all is Count Dooku. Compared to Dooku's fight what Mace did was less difficult, yet Mace still had a harder time with bulq.
Source: Dark Horse Comics
Sora Bulq was also mentioned in two novel's "Revenge Of The Sith" & "Shatterpoint" as one of the Jedi who disgraced the order and joined the Sith. So he can be considered a canon character within the story.
For Mace its hard to win but for Dooku its easy, look at how easy it was.
He disarmed him so easily in saber combat. Mace is not the better duelist, he can't do anything similar to the same opponent.

14) Comparing Jango Fett's encounter wtih Obi-Wan to his encounter with Mace Windu later on in the arena.
Versus ObiWan
[one]
[two]
[three]
[four]
[five]
What Jango said after the fight.
How Mace killed him (above).
Jango fighting Mace (above).
Mace Windu took advantage of when Jango was distracted and not in a proper position to fend off Jedi attackers.
Also Windu believed Jango could kill him.
Point should be noted; Jango was more hardpressed by a AOTC version of obi wan than he was by Mace Windu's skills. So since this is the case i think Obi Wan is atleast a better unarmed fighter than Windu is.

15) Countess Rajine captured Mace Windu.
This happened during a unspecified span of time it is not known which day or year it occured other than the fact that it happened in between 21 and 19 BBY (pre-ROTS).
It's in the clone war multimedia project.
Here's the quote:
"Windu later finds himself hanging on a wall facing the Countess Rajine. Rajine reveals that she is, in fact, an energy vampire that has sucked the life forces from all the zombies she controls outside. Z-18 turns out to be in her service, too. Windu learns that Rajine has already started sucking out his life-force as well, and his ability to use the Force is dwindling.".
"Much later that night, Z-18 frees him and reveals that he used to belong to a Jedi Knight named Samuro, who died on the planet."
2nd quote;
"Windu was escorted into the city by Z-18, Rajine began to drain his life-force. While investigating the city, Windu found that the clones were dead and was subsequently captured by Rajine's zombies. After imprisoning him,"
Explaining - Mace could not get out of such circumstances by himself, a droid rescued him, he was clearly beaten and captured.

16) Mace admits he can be beaten by the Akk Gaurds:
Source: this is from page 262 of "Shatterpoint"

17) Windu's loss to another Droid.
1st quote:
"During the ambush on the Hissrich operation, AD-W4 faced the Jedi Master Mace Windu in single combat. The robot mercenary eventually bested him for a few seconds and escaped."
2nd quote:
"Although Ay-Dee bested Windu the first time, Windu managed to critically wound Ay-Dee with his lightsaber during the second duel."
3rd quote:
"he was able to hold his own against and on occasion overpower Jedi Master Mace Windu."

18) Captured and defeated in a battle by what can be described as "the invaders"
"Jedi Knight Mace Windu challenged the invaders, but was captured. Yojan, along with three others, rescued Mace, and together they drove off the enemy."

19) Failure against General Grievous at his Coruscant invasion;
Different version's of this incident.
What Mace did in the cartoon:
He force crushed the heart or lungs of Grievous, yet still the general got away with his treasure and preferred object (chancellor palpatine himself).

What happened in Labyrinth of Evil:
"Grievous drew two lightsabers from inside his billowing cloak. By the time they were ignited, Mace was already on and all over the cyborg, batting away at the two blades, swinging low at Grievous's artificial legs, thrusting at his skeletal face. The lightsabers thrummed and hissed, meeting one another in bursts of dazzling light. In a corner of Mace's mind he wondered to which Jedi Grievous's blades had belonged. Just as the Force was keeping Mace from being blown from the mag-lev's roof, magnetism of some sort was keeping the general fastened in place. For the cyborg, though, the coherence hindered as much as it helped, whereas Mace never remained in one place for very long. Again and again the three blades joined, in snarling attacks and parries."
"As Mace already knew from Ki-Adi-Mundi and Shaak Ti, Grievous was well trained in the Jedi arts. He could recognize the hand of Dooku in the general's training and technique. His strikes were as forceful as any Mace had ever had to counter, and his speed was astonishing. But he didn't know Vaapad-the technique of dark flirtation in which Mace excelled. The loss of his confederates was noted by whatever computers were slaved to Grievous's organic brain, but the loss neither distracted nor slowed him. His sole setting was attack. Successful at analysing Mace's lightsaber style, those same computers suggested that Grievous alter his stance and posture, along with the angle of his parries, ripostes, and thrusts."
"The result wasn't Vaapad, but it was close enough, and Mace wasn't interested in prolonging the contest any longer than necessary. Crouching low, he angled the blade downward and slashed, guiding it through the roof of the car, perpendicular to Grievous's stalwart advance."
Brief synopsis;
Grievous duels evenly with Mace Windu atop a speeding mag-lev train. The general magnetized his foot talons to the roof of the train during the fight as to not fall, which restricted his mobility, whereas the Force granted Windu free range of motion, giving him an advantage. Grievous also only used two blades instead of a possible four. Mace ends the fight by cutting the ground out beneath Grievous' foot, causing him to fall.
What Mace referred to in ROTS:
Mace Windu believed that him and yoda are not capable of defeating or besting General Grievous in a fight.
My CONCLUSION;
When it comes to his battle's and bouts with Grievous then mace always tries to (more often than not) put a quick end to it from a distance by utilizing force powers like in the battle of boz pity. Cause Mace Windu knows that once Grievous gets him in close quarters its game over for him. As Mace Windu is not competent as a warrior to deal with Grievous's attacks head on in close proximity, its simply not possible due to Grievous's speed, unpredictabilty and power to mimic & copy saber movements. Including Vaapad.
As a duelist Grievous was mace's superior, as a fighter Mace was grievous's superior due to the force being a advantage, but in 6/10 cases/fights Grievous would win, mainly due to the fact that Grievous can do upto 20 attacks in a second, is faster than Obi-Wan (who reacts very well to Anakin's moves) and is the better duelist.
Due to his impressive speed Grievous always forced his opponents (except Dooku) to strictly use the force to keep up with his speed by using Force Augmentation to boost their physical limitation's. Since all their concentration will be on that they are unable to use the force to manipulate or levitate Grievous's body, or even toss an object or throw a force push at him.
Why even though he would lose to Grievous i consider Mace the better fighter?
Because i believe that Mace can defeat an enemy that uses force lightning, the same characters who use that ability would be able to best Grievous in a fight, Grievous would lose to people that Mace can beat, still he can defeat Mace because its not so simple ABC logic does not always work. This is a game of rock paper scissors.
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In terms of intellect and anticipation of the future or current events.

As a force user his only special ability is the shatterpoint. He had nothing else that was advanced. Every other technique of mace windu was average or commonly used. He can not levitate himself or float. He can not summon any lightning.
At most he can force crush your body parts. Or use force waves, pushes and telekinesis all are commonly used by padawans, younglings, knights etc.

OVERALL;He had very poor decision making skills and despite being a elite warrior the man is still inferior to many and he is nowhere near the level of the true top tiers.
Mace Windu is inferior to Count Dooku, Anakin Skywalker, Plo Koon in terms of a combatant.

I do believe Windu has high chances of beating ObiWan as Mace is the better force user, though Obiwan is the better duelist as per Windu's own admission and based on feats. Just his force wall is not tough enough to protect him from the force attacks Mace would bring to the table.

Mace Windu's long list of inferior showings against opponents that are vastly inferior to Sidious, Dooku, Anakin and sometimes even Obiwan and Maul in cases tells me that Mace Windu is out of his league as a fighter, tactician and is unable to think ahead in political situations, matters etc.

One more thing; Asajj Ventress (by the time of "dreadnaughts of Rendili" "battle of boz pity") has a good chance at beating Mace Windu in a fair fight. Her anger will not feed Windu any energy because she only got angry during the TCW show (2008) & (battle of boz pity) but the latter was very brief, for most of her battle (last encounter with anakin & obiwan) she was calm, taunting her enemies.

If i were to include dark disciple then Asajj was stronger than Mace as she gave Dooku a better fight in the end.

All anti feat's of Mace Windu. A in-depth elaboration/analysis.

This right here is an updated list/version of a previous post. [ Link to it ] -  https://xdddddddddxxxxx.blogspot.com/2021/09/mace-windu-is-...