[Link to it] - https://xdddddddddxxxxx.blogspot.com/2021/09/mace-windu-is-overrated-fighter-and.html
Reasons why it took too long for me to complete this post are that i was multi tasking. The novel ShatterPoint was 686 pages, too lengthy for my taste & i also had to study for my career in reaLife which was very complex as it involved countless exams & books to read. I also had other goals i was focused on like video-editing etc. I also had a reaLife court case to deal with aswell.
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1) Boba Fett;
Whether mace windu lost or had the upper hand (was about to end it/win the fight) is not relevant, what is really important is that a eleven year old, inexperienced boy was able to make him bleed, that is a big anti feat regardless of anything else in his career.
These are three images for it, all contain a link within them which could be copied word for word by a user/viewer, all they need to do is use their keyboard to type or text that link into their barcode/search option.
What makes it worse is that according to books https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t4427-ultimate-general-grievous-respect-thread-legends-2022 Boba was injured before this fight (vs Mace) by magna guard's.
Image;
Source - "Boba Fett A New Threat (2004)"
It is more-embarrassing because boba fett was defeated/over-powered by Magna-Guard's earlier before his encounter vs mace windu. This would also make those guards look like they are at the same or a higher level of power than Mace Windu. Cause considering the common foe [boba] & the boz pity incident (where windu got tackled by them) these guards are tough & worthy of more credit than the casual SW fan gives them.
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2) Akk dog's:
"When her former master failed in his attempt to calm the creatures through the Force and was nearly killed, Billaba reacted quickly and temporarily wounded one of the Akks with her lightsaber"
Note - "former master" mean's Mace Windu.
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Each duel involving Asajj Ventress;
3) Mission to Ruul in the year twenty two BBY, this was three month's after Genosis.
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Chronology; it's also believed that not more than one month passed by after ventress met dooku on Rattatak here and before she fought Windu. This tells u the difference between dooku/windu's power too as dooku is very easily able to dominate her & even one shot her with lightning attacks.
[GIF]
By the way Ventress fought four jedi (excluding sora bulq) shortly before this incident, so her fight with windu began when she was not at her full power. But she still wounded him or overpowered him briefly before retreating. However she failed to do anything like that against a dooku that barely took her seriously as a opponent.
3.5) Theirs another mention of this fight in a book named "The Cestus Deception" it is co signed by George Lucas and remained canon from its release date (2004) until 2014.
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Yet for that same decade fans of mace windu, samuel L jackson & star wars overrated mace windu's power. This was a bad showing for mace regardless.
Another source which references this fight claims that windu had to use all skills from vaapad to shatterpoint in order to barely best her, and this would be 28 months before the obsession comics, but just 2 weeks after asajj's duel against anakin (at Yavin prime).
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4) Losing to Asajj though Anakin helped him in a two vs one scenario.
The incident is from a different continuity that is not considered 'Legend's' instead it is from a cut scene of a video game, though a video game itself is most of the time considered non canon the same time its cutscenes are the only thing that can be taken seriously or acknowledged.
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Similarly most scenes in the ROTS video game (for Xbox) are false due it being a video game, however the cut scenes where anakin fought cin drallig & the separatist council member's on Mustafar can be taken seriously as canon scenes due to ROTS being a film on such a grand scale that had many off screen scenes/death's and references to these incidents in itself.
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The incident (asajj ventress vs mace windu & anakin skywalker) happened after the 2008 film and even after the episode where cad bane freed ziro from the prison of Coruscant. Mainly due to ziro the hutt's presence as being a free criminal/individual. But if this scene is taken seriously then its evidence that at least in season 3 of TCW Asajj Ventress was tougher than Mace Windu.
Debunk - many windu fans and anakin fans too will try to state that asajj had multiple B1 type droids (standard battle droid's) helping her in this conflict so she was not alone, but in the video game those droids are not in any cut scene involving this fight, the only thing canon is the cut scenes not the game play itself so those droids being their is only for gamers not for the character's themselves so it can't be used as a point against her achievement here.
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Final: It's not made clear who said this line "use something to stun her" but it is clear that she was too powerful for either warrior/character to take her on their own during this point. Meaning Asajj was faster than one of these two jedi minimum. Since force stun is not known to anakin i assume that he said it but for some reason mace also was not confident of battling her in a solo encounter.
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5) This fifth incident is the final showdown between mace and ventress, but here ventress played the fight off as if it was a joke, she did not appear to take it seriously or use anywhere close to her full power, so not only was she below her prime but she was holding back whatever power she had in this time period too.
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Chronology of the fight is before she got betrayed by dooku (on order's of Sidious) clearly it is from the TCW continuity. Obvious evidence of her holding back is using one blade instead of 2 or her sabre staff weapon change while Mace fighting seriously is clearly shown. Before anybody mentions it her droids did not interfere or make a move in this fight.
This may not be a defeat of windu but it is a poor performance, if he can be stalemated by Asajj (who is mid council member lvl) then he could be defeated by ki adi mundi, anakin skywalker. I see no reason to place windu above a guy like savage opress or a guy like quinlan vos when this happened to him.
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About Asajj Ventress's anti feats. The biggest problem is that Asajj herself had poor performances or tough times in battle and combat against other characters, i have already discussed her plo koon & ki adi mundi fight's before so i will ignore those and instead focus on 3 of her other losses, two are in legends, one is in canon.
The canon one against Keelyvine Reus;
Grievous (the chapter was Rogues Gallery) in CWA.
Anakin from obsession just a month before the battle of boz pity:
I get the fact that Anakin had multiple accolades praising him to be tougher than almost all jedi but what his fanbase ignores all the time is the list of anti-feats & bad performances in battles involving his character. So a loss to anakin that too this easily should be considered a embarrassment for Asajj as a fighter.
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6) Rhino from AOTC.
Comment - Not only is it a embarrassment for him but it's also the incident which has the highest possibility of being canon as it is movie canon. Shown on the big screen itself.
And this rhino was tamed fairly by a unarmed padawan Anakin so its fair to use this as a embarrassing moment for Mace.
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7) The rocket launcher in SOD ('Son Of Dathomir') though many people point toward his brief exchange with darth maul i do not consider that as a anti feat because it was not a long fight, instead it happened very briefly and quickly so its not evidence of maul overpowering windu it can only be used to state maul is better than aayla secura (cause she was depowered in the new continuity).
However the true anti feat is what is often ignored by everyone, that is that Mace failed in dodging the rocket which Maul easily avoids, this incident exposes Mace Windu's lackluster reflexes, reaction timing & speed.
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8th) Clone War Season Six Episode Nine was the worse showing for Mace Windu.
First Jar Jar Binks tackled him from the back leading to him losing his light saber to a random nameless character here.
9th) This bunny looking beast animal from the same episode.
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10th) against a projectile missile weapon.
Source - "Clone War Adventure Comic Book"
[Image]
These comic's are based on the micro series cartoon from 2003. But i don't see how mace windu can be seen as a better warrior than Kit Fisto, Adi Gallia or even the overrated Shaak Ti when such a incident does not happen to them.
11) Ultra Battle Droid [One-hundred-fifty-day's-after-genosis]
This's proof that not only was mace windu alone incapable against the droid but also that his physical strength remained inferior to jedi beings of his own age (Saesee Tiin).
Age; Saesee was on the council before 33 BBY like Mace Windu, so they had similar ages.
According to the matthew stover written novel ROTS mace was the youngest to be on the high council before anakin, so that implies he was younger than Saesee so if Saesee had better physical strength and force abilities despite his age then clearly its indeed a poor showing for mace.
The ultra battle droid incident happened 150 days after BOG; https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Heavy_Metal_Jedi
But its admitted & acknowledged that mace could never do it alone, he needs the support of saesee tiin for the incident.
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12) General Grievous:
This will be a trickier one to elaborate upon. Firstly theirs different versions of event's considering how this fight happened.
[Micro Series]
It's already been established that here Mace Windu casually defeated Grievous by one shotting him, you would think it does make sense when it is compared to a similar incident that happened earlier (on "the battle of boz pity") occurring five month's before ROTS Windu was able to defeat Grievous through telekinesis while Grievous's attention/focus was elsewhere or Grievous just made a mistake by being overconfident.
But a issue here is that in the obsession comic's (Star Wars Republic by John Ostrander) & the Micro series comic book (CWA CloneWarAdventure's) their were multiple hints which showed that Grievous had higher authority/rank in comparison to the lower rate servants of dooku that included Asajj Ventress (who was a match for mace windu). So it makes no real sense for mace windu to easily beat general grievous it can only be taken as a credible incident if mace windu had to do labor/hard work to defeat Grievous, he should not have been able to achieve that victory without difficulty.
Which's why the incident in the micro series & the victory of mace in the obsession comic book is harder to believe, similarly dooku's victory against yoda in the planet Tatooine is also hard to believe cause of how easy it was for him.
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Their are 2 other versions of the incident.
[Video Game]
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Note: I watched cutscenes of the video game, it is of a video game that tells the story from the perspective of 2 brothers (that are clones that somehow became force-sensitive & got educated as jedi warrior's in the clone war era). The premise appears to be the same in that it is a battle which took place during the invasion of Coruscant when Grievous attempted to abduct Chancellor Palpatine.
Another version is from Labyrinth Of Evil.
The quote about what happened before this fight started, i will now give that passage as the background is necessary here.
[BEGIN]
Mace leaned partway out the window, eyes searching the canyon. “And battle droids don’t just drop from the sky. There’s a third craft.” Kit’s bulging black eyes indicated Palpatine. “They want to take him alive.” The words had scarcely left his mouth when something hit the train with sufficient force to whip everyone from one side of the car to the other, then back again. The Red Guards were just regaining their balance when the roof began to resound with the cadence of heavy, clanging footfalls, advancing from the rear of the train. “Grievous,” Mace grumbled.
Kit glanced at him. “Here we go again.” Hurrying into the vestibule between the two lead cars, they launched themselves to the roof. Three cars distant marched General Grievous and two of his elite droids, their capes snapping behind them in the wind, pulse-tipped batons angled across their barrel chests. Farther back, clamped by animal-like claws to the roof of the train, was the gunboat from which the frightful trio had been released. Without pausing, Grievous drew two lightsabers from inside his billowing cloak.
[END]
The battle begins at page 251.
Screenshot's;
[Two images edited]
Analysis - clearly I joined images together, but they show the full fight in detail. And the text is the same just little to no spaces between some of them in a page.
Detail's: Mace Windu got a headstart as its mentioned he was already all over grievous in a offensive manner when Grievous ignited his blades. The author then goes onto explain how the magnaguard's are murdered by Fisto. Then the battle of windu vs grievous turned slowly into grievous's favor (thats what it seemed to be going like) because Windu believed he accidentally made grievous tougher through showing him vaapad. Or the better answer is because of the computer in grievous's brain giving him a unfair advantage.
Windu decided to end the duel by using a force push, one can declare mace windu the winner of the fight however the issue is that others had less difficulty in fighting/beating this opponent (Grievous) compared to mace windu himself.
[this's a fanmade picture of their duel by a reddit star wars user]
Though it being around mud & haysticks is a error that makes no sense. Overall the point is according to the ROTS Novel, the LOE (labyrinth of evil) side story and the video game (battlefront) Mace was inferior to Grievous but in the micro series & the comics (by john ostrander) Windu was superior to Grievous as a warrior. It is three vs two sources, the majority is in favor of Grievous.
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13) Obi Wan fought better against a common opponent compared to mace windu. They both fought against Vianna D Pow, Jango Fett, General Grievous, Asajj Ventress and Count Dooku. In these master windu only outperformed kenobi during the fight with jango but not in any of the other incidents.
When it comes to the darth maul comparison then Windu's travel speed remained inferior to maul's but obi wan proved to be faster than Maul in many occasions or atleast comparable to his. So it stands to reason he would be quicker than mace windu.
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Even with Jango (the only other opponent where it can possible be argued that mace did better against) that was a fight which involved geography that works to windus advantage since jango had to deal with a animal beast and friendly fire from the blaster bolt's of b1 prototype droid's in the petranaki arena. But mace windu had jedi to guard his blind spot (rear) from blaster bolt's letting him focus on jango fett solely.
Obi Wan fought jango at a different location in kamino where he had to deal with a spaceship that interfered and the geography that had limited movement space for kenobi's feet but advantageous for the usage of equipment which Jango Fett owns.
[Pictures for the Vianna D Pow incident]
The claim i make is that her fight against Obi Wan was longer & harder. Yes Mace Windu defeated Vianna D Pow in their second round, but it does not change the fact she was unable to do this electric stun move against Obi Wan yet was able to succeed against Windu.
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In canon obi wan fought Asajj 3 times, once in the battle of christophsis, then after Jabba's son Rotta was captured in TCW's movie, again during tcw season 3 where it was a two vs duel in the episode itself (when dooku betrays her on order of Sidious) in the deleted scenes it's changed into a four vs one duel where Ima Gun Di/Ahsoka Tano get involved too. Apart from these three incident's their was not any other incident where Asajj fought Obi Wan.
In Legend's:
First they fight in Ohma Dun, their next conflict is on Queyta which involved four jedi & the gen dai bounty hunter Durge. Obi Wan lost his first 2 fights against her. But in their 3rd conflict he somehow gained victory probably due to geography or experience (getting more familiar with her technique of combat).
During "Cestus Deception" which was more than twelve months after BOG (battle of genosis) the geography helped obi wan win cause Asajj Ventress got caught underwater & used 1 light saber against Obi Wan Kenobi (who did not have the rebreather device on him).
The asajj ventress who Mace Windu fought against was weaker than the one that Obi Wan fought in Cestus Deception. Obi Wan goes onto fight Asajj at least 3 more times, once when he made an escape from Rattatak, again during a fight which involved Quinlan Vos and Tol Skorr.
The final encounter was during the obsession comic book saga which i think should be discounted though obi wan did perform badly their (it happened in Boz Pity). The reason i exclude this is because Asajj was not mentally sane & Kenobi had been restricting his own power against Ventress, he even force pushed Anakin away from attacking her.
Quote;
"Their battle brought them back onto the battlefield, where Anakin joined in. Obi-Wan sabotaged Anakin's attempts to kill Asajj, though, believing she could still be redeemed."
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Now to get onto the other common foe (grievous) the fact is in every battle obi wan had against Grievous (legends or canon) he never needed another person as a ally. But mace windu needed the aid of the X2 clone officer, he also had a harder time facing him despite the fact Grievous never applied the quad dueling (4 sabre's) technique against him.
Though if u consider the battles of boz pity and the micro-series cartoon incident then its clear mace windu was tougher than both of them combined (obi wan/grievous) but if you consider the fan favorite ROTS Novel (by Matthew Stover approved by Lucas) then Obi Wan being a better duelist than himself is verified by mace windu himself.
He also considers grievous either better than himself or equal as when mace talked about his fight with grievous then he was referring to the LOE version (labyrinth of evil) not the boz pity incident or the micro series cartoon.
So it would appear that in close quarter's Obi Wan Kenobi has mace windu beat and since mace windu is unlikely to spam a force crush or telekinesis attack against him (which would be the best solution to beat obi wan or one shot him from a distance) that means at least 6 times out of 10 scenarios Kenobi would beat Mace.
14th anti feat of Mace Windu (no longer off topic anymore): Would be Lorz Geptun from the shatterpoint book.
Wookiepedia quote:
"When Mace Windu arrived on the planet six months after the First Battle of Geonosis, the Jedi Master was brought before Geptun after he was shot and captured by the militia."
[Screenshot/Image]
Cross References;
[BEGIN]
By way of reply, Geptun reached into the animal-skin case and pulled out Mace's lightsaber. The glow rod shell had been stripped away. Traces of adhesive showed black against the metal. He hefted it in his hand, smiling. "And torture would hefted it in his hand, smiling. "And torture would probably be a waste of time, too, yes?" He set the lightsaber on the table and spun it like a bottle. Mace could feel its whirl in the Force: feel exactly how to touch it with his mind, to lift it and trigger it and set it flashing upon Colonel Geptun, to slay or hold hostage, or to slash through the restraints that held him in the binder chair-He let it spin. The two shooters standing ready at the far end of the corridor made sense to him now. His lightsaber's spin took on a wobble, slowed, and trickled to a stop, its emitter centered on his breastbone. "I believe that means you're It,"Geptun said.
[COMPLETE]
Page number - 84 to 85 This proves that mace was being stopped from literally moving himself (hence the 'restraints')
The types of injuries that Windu received in this battle are shown later when Rostu treated his wounds;
[Quote]
"Smiley's name was Nick Rostu. He'd introduced himself in the groundcar while he was spray-bandaging Mace's in the groundcar while he was spray-bandaging Mace's cuts and treating his bruises by a liberal use of the stolen captured medpac."
Source; Page numbers 124 to 125.
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15th - A incident during 26 or 27 BBY involving Depa Billaba before AOTC at Nar Shadaa.
Quotes.
1;
"Mace was on the sand in the Circus Horrificus in the bowels of Nar Shaddaa, surrounded by thousands of screaming spectators, at the mercy of Gargonn the Hutt He understood now why he had done this. Why he'd had to. Because in that instant's vision of a long-ago arena, Depa was at his side. Was that their last mission together? Could it be? Itseemed so long ago."
Source - From PAGE 149.
2:
"I had come to Nar Shaddaa to track down exotic-animal smugglers who had sold attack-trained akk dogs to the Red laro terrorists of Lannik-and Depa had followed me to the Smugglers' Moon because she had suspected I might need her help. How right she was: even together, we barely survived. It was a terrible fight, against mutated giant akks for the amusement of the Circus Horrificus patrons."
Source; Page 150
3RD QUOTE:
"On that day in Nar Shaddaa, she showed me blade work that surpassed my own; she had continued to grow and study and progress in Vaapad as well as the Force. She made meso very proud. It had been years since she had passed her Trials of Knighthood; she had long been a Jedi Master, and a member of the Council; but for that one day, we had again been Mace and Depa, Master and Padawan, pitting the lethal efficiency of Vaapad against the worst the galaxy could throw at us."
We fought as we had so many times: a perfectly integrated unit, augmenting each other's strengths, countering each other's weaknesses, and on that day it seemed we should have never done and on that day it seemed we should have never done anything else. As Jedi Knights, we were unbeatable. As Masters, members of the Council-What have we won? Anything? Or have we lost everything? How is it that our generation came to be the first in a thousand years to see our Republic shattered by war?"
[end]
Source is "ShatterPoint" page 151
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Various incident's;
16A - these casual bottom tier fodder's were able to injure Mace's ribcage despite being only gunmen.
The screenshot is from "ShatterPoint".
16B - Continuation;
Explained: he failed to protect his body again yet he gets compared to sidious, dooku etc, but mace was not even skilled in Soresu.
His enemies/attackers were not using their full power.
Quote;
"The speeder pilot blasted the bin's far side and it slammed Mace hard enough to knock his wind out. Shot. Concussed. Cut. Battered. Bladeless. Haruun Kal was pounding him to pieces, and he hadn't been on-world even a standard day. been on-world even a standard day."
Source: 'ShatterPoint'
Basic's; he took yet another L.
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16C - Page 246 of the book (shatter point)
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17a - Depa Billaba stabbed him across his gut.
17b - Billaba surpassed the speed of Mace.
Cause in page 656 Mace was clearly holding back (he did not desire to murder her, also he was weakened recently due to the stab across his chest) i will not hold it as a anti feat against him. But it was kind of impressive that Mace could react against all the fast-attack's of Billaba despite his body's condition (she was at least a mid tier council member/warrior).
Mace not being at full power can't be used as a counterargument here cause of the below image:
So as u should be able to read Miss Billaba was not in top condition either.
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18 - Kar Vastor. This's really long & complex.
MACE WINDU VS KAR VASTOR;
[BEGIN]
The sole of a boot slammed his spine so hard that he flipped completely overand landed on his head. The Korun sprang to his feet, unhurt and raging. "Kick me? Gonna die, you! Gonna die-" He stopped, because to move another centimeter would have brought his nose in contact with the rock-steady purple lightsaber blade poised in front of his face. At the other end of that blade stood Mace Windu. 'Yes, I will," he said. "But not today." The Korun's expression curdled like sour grasser milk. "Must be the Windu Jedi you" he said in Koruun "Depa's sire" The Windu Jedi, you," he said in Koruun. "Depa's sire." The word gave Mace a twinge; in Koruun, sire could mean either "master" or "father." Or both.
[END]
Page numbers 291-292 of Shatterpoint.
Their complete fight in screenshot mode.
It is true that later in the novel Mace was in a situation where he could have killed Vastor. But what is more important is that it was due to circumstances like vastor being unarmed & his focus being elsewhere (not on windu).
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Proof was this above image.
NOTE - If the ability shatterpoint failed against Kar Vastor then i doubt it could be useful by the same practitioner (mace windu) in a different battle. Cause it failed to do much against a untrained force user [Kar Vastor].
Latest comparison of both warrior's:
"Vaster snarled and leaped. Ultrachrome flashed. Mace could have met him, blade to shields, but instead he slipped aside. He had no intention of fighting this man. Not here and now. Not anywhere. Not ever. Vastor was younger, stronger, faster, and Not ever. Vastor was younger, stronger, faster, and immensely more powerful, and he wielded weapons that could not be harmed by the Jedi blade. Mace couldn't win such a battle on his best day, and this day was far from his best."
Source - Page 667
Photo:
Those injuries that remained a nuisance to windu after the fight. So Kar Vastor > Mace Windu.
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Positive things for Mace Windu is that he had the rare ability known as hibernation trance;
[quote]
"Perhaps I should risk a hibernation trance."
[complete]
From - page 237 of Shatterpoint.
But another jedi called "K'kruhk" had the same ability too.
About shatter point: All i can say about it is that either shatterpoint takes time for windu to charge up and focus on before he can find the weakness of a enemy, or it does not work on certain individuals, cause if it was really a relevant power then why did he get so many anti feats in his career?
Mace Windu was not very intelligent cause of this;
What forms did Mace know of besides Vaapad?
Most likely he had a basic understanding of Makashi and how to utilize it in combat, because he sparred with Dooku various times. But its interesting to note that in ROTS during his conversation he told obi wan "since grievous was trained by dooku you can expect makashi as well" this line implies that when grievous did fight mace windu then he did not use any makashi technique against him as Mace strictly mentioned "you can expect" the reality is Grievous only used jar'kai & vaapad (possibly Juyo) on mace during their exchange.
Pages 193 to 194 of 'Shatterpoint' portrayed Mace Windu fighting by using Jar Kai combat, his other light sabre was green (depa billaba's who did not appear until after that incident). So according to that novel Mace was a user of the duel blade form.
Obviously he knew shii cho and soresu but most likely was not a master in either of them. Soresu based on how he gauged obi wan's virtue in battle and shii cho cause all jedi know that form as its the first which they get trained in.
Vaapad is not a instant win. Its overrated, to prove this i do not need to go into anymore than this quote from the novel Shatterpoint:
[quote]
"The lust for victory. To win, at any cost. Blood fever. I feel it even now. It's not overpowering I haven't fallen that far. Yet. It's more a preference. An expectation. An anticipation that has been disappointed. This is bad. Not the worst itcan be, but bad enough. I have long known that I am in danger here. But only now am I beginning to understand how dark & near that danger is; I never guessed how close Haruun Kal that danger is I never guessed how close Haruun Kal has already brought me to that fatal brink. It is a side effect of the Force immersion of Vaapad. My style grants great power, but at a terrible risk. Blood fever is a disease that can kill anyone it touches. To use Vaapad, you must allow yourself to enjoy the fight. You give yourself to the thrill of battle. The rush of winning. This is why so few students even attempt the style. Vaapad is a path that leads through the penumbra of the dark side."
Source - pages 201 to 202 of shatterpoint.
Analysis: Mace admits a weakness/flaw in vaapad.
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Honorable Mention's would be the following incidents. I have decided to remove them from the core list of mace windu's poor performances/anti feats. Because their are excuses for those ones. Instead i place them in a honorable mention list due to them being different variations of a anti feat of this character/warrior.
1st incident is when Dooku (as a Jedi) defeated Mace Windu (who was a jedi by that moment) its believed he was born in 72 BBY so he would at most be 39 when Dooku beat him. Before mace windu improved, the reason jedi master dooku defeating mace windu (before TPM) is not important is cause Dooku being tougher than Windu has already been established as a clear fact.
Based on comparing their performances against a common enemy (sora bulq, asajj ventress, general grievous etc). So jedi master dooku beating a weaker version of mace windu isn't really important when its already been established that he's above the strongest versions of windu (AOTC, Tcw, Legends, ROTS) etc.
Another thing is that since dooku/mace referred to eachother formally as friends or colleagues its likely both of them held back against each other when they were jedi sparring. Losing to Dooku (even in his Jedi condition) is not a L since dooku was already a yoda level fighter before in his jedi life.
It's also believed sometimes that dooku being called "the best swordsman" meant he might have defeated yoda even when he was a jedi. Though that can be seen as a stretch, still the basic point is its no anti feat when the person who beat you is among the best.
2nd incident against Saesee Tiin is not relevant enough to count as a anti feat, i take it as the only occasion where Saesee tiin proved his title as "1 of the greatest blade beings in the 25,000 year history of the jedi Order" to be a genuine accolade and not fake praising. Basically i think Saesee was much tougher in the year 31 BBY compared to his counterpart in ROTS (he was older in 19 BBY) and mace was weaker than his CW/ROTS self.
Another point is that we [the audience/reader's & fanbase] did not see the fights ending, we dont know if it remained a stalemate or if windu won/lost, so it cant really count against him, but it might count against darth maul since darth maul praised/up played & respected mace windu as a fighter during the year thirty two bby. Cause if saesee tiin can match windu then i think he could beat darth maul during the phantom menace (TPM).
But i have decided to at least give the photo which show's this fight. This part was a fair unbiased critique for mace's combat skill. For Saesee Tiin as a warrior whenever he is explored then it would seem his best achievements were in the market of telekinesis/force ability not swordsmanship so i wonder why Saesee was never used by star wars authors after this incident, why did they not let him fight a dark acolyte in the clone war?
Even if Saesee Tiin defeated Mace Windu here then it can not be seen as a anti feat or embarrassment because based on praise/hearsay Master Tiin was the best jedi warrior of this time after yoda/depa/mace windu etc, he could be number four since dooku is not in the Order at this point.
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The 3rd incident would be the one involving "Sora Bulq" their are many issues with it. The more & more you study about sora bulq the more it becomes obvious that all author's behind his creation basically didnt have a plan for him on how to use his character better, what i mean is we never see him fight anyone besides quinlan vos, mace windu & count dooku.
It would have been good to see mr Bulq in charge of separatist battle plans attacking other planets like bothawui or cathar etc so he has an actual role in the clone wars. The writers did not even give him a fight against Oppo Rancisis, instead he killed Oppo without challenging him or fighting. That was dull, bland & not good because we never got to see what sora bulq is really capable of.
He is criminally underused as a villainous warrior in the clone war, not explored enough at all, he could have become like star wars version of kaname tousen (a blind warrior from Bleach). Now for the main topic which is his duel against Mace Windu i think we need to understand a couple obvious points. Bulq was a previous friend of mace and he referred to him as a brother, this makes a strong case for mace holding back.
It is true mace windu's force barrier was broken through and he got pushed briefly by Sora's telekinetic style attack, but another side of this coin is that windu was unharmed from that push, he got back up and continued the fight casually. One more point which explains and justifies why mace had trouble (in that it took alot of time before he could beat sora) is that sora shared the same style of vaapad that Mace did so if someone knows and can predict each move u make, they are too familiar with your technique then obviously u would have difficultyin beating them.
At most Sora Bulq's fight proves he had the speed & strength to react to mace windu & keep up with him but mace was clearly above him, it appeared he could end the fight whenever he wanted too based on the force push that Mace used to conclude his duel with Bulq. However this only proves mace windu could win against Bulq due to superior force power not cause of swordsmanship or dueling skills.
And finally this was just 3 months after genosis, i am certain that by the time of the Obsession comic's then mace windu (who now is tougher after 27 months of war) Mace could easily defeat Sora cause Sora did not show any sign's of improvement as a fighter due to not receiving proper exposure from his authors (the ones who wrote the Republic Legends comic series).
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4th - the battle against Prosset Dibs can also be used by detractors of Mace Windu to claim he is weaker than he really is. While my personal opinion is that mace windu is barely the fifth strongest jedi of the ROTS era i still think that using Prosset Dibs is incorrect. Because Prosset Dibs was clearly a knock off character copied from the script of sora bulq, literally a ripoff.
In the brief duel between Prosset & Mace its very clear that Mace tried his best in negotiating & reasoning with the man, he was trying to talk it out with Prosset & basically holding back against him but star wars fans are unable to see that. Prosset Dibs was not even on the same level of AOTC windu let alone Clone War Era/ROTS Windu.
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Also "Prosset Dibs" comes from a different continuity.
5th - Is a very lesser known and mysterious incident involving a character named "Countess Rajine" the reason it can not be used to degrade windu's power is cause theirs no evidence that anyother jedi would have done better than he did in that scenario. Yes it can be assumed that yoda, plo koon, anakin skywalker could have done better but at the end of the day Rajine only fought mace windu & nobody else we the audience/readers did not see Rajine fight a jedi of that era besides Mace Windu.
Conclusion; Yes mace windu had his fair share of anti feats but a a good chunk or fraction of these anti feats can be debunked/explained, though most of them still stand, they are sustained as valid reasons to exclude mace windu from the ranking of top 3 or top 4 jedi warrior's. He is overrated too much by star wars fans.
Instead of comparing mace windu to count dooku, yoda, sidious etc the fanbase should be comparing mace windu with plo koon, asajj ventress, nejaa halcyon, ki adi mundi & sevrance tann.
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Hope this was adequate to convince all the naysayers.
